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Jail's request for rainwater disposal won't be considered

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Timothy W. Darr

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Proposal for 'green project' using town's sewer system caused too many concerns

By Kim Walter -- kwalter@nvdaily.com

FRONT ROYAL -- The Town Council will not consider a request from the future Rappahannock Shenandoah Warren Regional Jail to use Front Royal's sewer system to dispose of rainwater used to do laundry.

During a work session Tuesday night, the council came to a consensus not to put the item on its agenda for Monday's meeting.

Moseley Architects plans to construct a rainwater cistern, and use the water solely for laundry and the jail's cooling tower. Tony Bell, from Moseley Architects, explained that rainwater used for laundry would be treated, and would equate to more than 800,000 gallons of water being put into the town's sewer system annually.

Bell also pointed out that the cistern does not take into account all other water demands for things like shower and toilet use, and that other water would be purchased from the town.

Essentially, he said, the jail would be taking out as much as it would put back into the town's system, hoping to address capacity concerns with the wastewater treatment plant.
As time goes on, anywhere from $6,000 to $8,000 would be saved annually because of the cistern, Bell said. Additionally, it would help bring the jail up to an LEED silver certification. Without the cistern, it could go down to a normal certification, Bell said.

While council members acknowledged the importance of "green" projects like the rainwater cistern, the majority had overriding concerns about future consequences.

Councilman Thomas E. Conkey compared the approval of foreign water coming into the town's system to "Pandora's box."

"There are going to be others in town who will want to do the same thing," he said, adding he already knew of several businesses that would "get in line."

Town Manager Steve Burke echoed Conkey's concern, and said that while it makes sense from the jail's perspective, "it would be a disservice to town citizens."

Conkey and Councilmen N. Shae Parker and Hollis Tharpe all spoke of present issues with outside entities using the town's wastewater system, and that the extra intake would bring it over capacity.

"I'm trying to find a nice way to say no," Tharpe said, offering that it might be something they could take on in the next several years once the town deals with current issues.

Parker agreed, and said it was the "right idea, but wrong time."

Councilmen Chris W. Holloway and Thomas H. Sayre were the only members to vote yes to the proposal, although Holloway did think the town should take legal action to prohibit anyone else but the jail or other government facilities from using the town's sewer
system in this way.

"The idea carries validity," said Mayor Timothy W. Darr. "In the future we might see it as a reality." He and Burke agreed with the majority of the council.


Our town council appears to be playing hardball with the issue of water regarding the proposed regional jail facility.

However, I would like to address a greater issue. How did we, as a nation, mutate from a representative government with due representation on a local scale to a government with ever expanding regional authorities and the huge expenses that go with it?

The big cities have this and maybe they need it, but how did our beloved rural areas become de facto big cities with megajails, megaschools, and megalaws?
I guess We the People have been asleep, but it is time to wake up.

Vote Vicente for Town Council

At least Tony Bell received a definitive answer from town councilman in a reasonable period of time. That's alot more than I got from these double talking, spineless excuses for representatives of the Town when proposing an alternative method to dispose of their biosolids. I still haven't gotten an official vote on who is for and who is against the idea as some don't want to be accountable for their actions or inaction down the road. I can't wait till May elections when we can get rid of a couple of these "good old boys" that can't get used to the idea that change requires bold, decisive leadership that comes from vision and individual courage to take risks. Doing nothing due to the fear of doing something and possibly making a mistake is ineffective and poor representation by officials elected by our town citizens. You know who I'm talking about, how they got elected and we got what we expected. How do we prevent it from happening again in May? Vote them out.

You asked 2 specific questions, but gave us no specific answers. Perhaps you will now take this opportunity to provide expansive answers in lieu of the grammar school simplistic "we were asleep" followed with "it's time to wake up"? We already have incumbent politicians capable of this style of obfuscation. Show us why you are a different breed than the incumbent Good Old Boys and therefore deserving of our votes.


Thank you for your response. Up until recently, I have been primarily concerned with my family and my salaried job, both of which are huge blessings. In the past few years, however, I have become increasingly concerned about the direction of the country. This concern has motivated me to make the decision, out of a sense of piety, to get involved in politics.

I am rapidly learning the process at a local level. However, these new governing regional authorities tend to have their meetings at inconvenient hours for people that have to earn a living. So my attempt is not to obfuscate; on the contrary, I wish not to lie to you about things I don't yet know. Those of us who wish to get deeper into politics need the help and solidarity of those who are looking for good leadership. I suppose my sincerity will now get me patronizing remarks from some professionals, but who cares?

As for good ole boys, I suppose you mean those with government-business connections that unfairly take advantage of these for their material or personal gain.
I can assure you that I have no such connections, nor do I intend to establish them.

--Manuel Vicente

Just curious Mr. Vicente, but what "government-business connections" are you referring to? Is this just a cliche` speech or do you have any specific examples (locally)? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm genuinely curious..........

Sincerity might get you patronizing comments, doubts about your sincerity will guarantee comments, both patronizing and criticizing.

You said: "...increasingly concerned about the direction of the country."
What exactly are your concerns?
Do they harmonize with the ideology of any established political party or religion?

You said: " This concern has motivated me to make the decision, out of a sense of piety, to get involved in politics."
The dictionary I consulted defines "piety" as a "reverence for God or devout fulfillment of religious obligations."
The Constitution requires separation of church and state. Do your religious obligations contradict the Constitution and the laws of the land? Are you another Rick Santorum eager to impose a theocratic form of government?
The dictionary I consulted defines "theocracy" as:
1 a form of government in which a god or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the god's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.
2. a system of government by priests claiming a divine commission.
3. a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.

Why is piety the better reason to become involved in politics rather than, say, a desire to serve the community through the process of good governance?

What can you do at the local level that would also affect the country's direction at the national level?

You said: "I wish not to lie to you..."
Why not say something much more profound, like 'I will not lie to you'?

I have withheld mentioning my first impression of you, Mr. Vicente. My second impression of you depends on answers to my questions above.

A short list of business-to-politician/politician-to-business Good Old Boy interactions, sometimes described as "quid pro quo legal graft" include:
Financial services
Insurance services
Legal services
Consulting services
No Bid contracts

The daily newspapers across the country are full of descriptions of illegal business-to-politician/politician-to-business Good Old Boy interactions that include:
Insider stock transactions
Selling of political influence
Selling political appointments
Extortion of fees for service (Pay to Play)

Political jurisdictions tightly controlled by Good Old Boys without opposing political party oversight seem to be immune to politicians getting themselves caught in corruption.

Why would one thank God that they are an atheists?

Mr Vicente's appeal to the virtue of Piety is commendable, given that it is one of the greatest virtues a politician could posses. And it does not speak well to Mr. ThankGodforMakingMeanAtheist that he had to appeal to his pocket dictionary for a poor definition of piety. Piety is a form of Justice, the virtue by which men give to others that which is due to them. Piety is the Justice given to those in authority. Parents, governments all are due Piety. It is not a Christian virtue, per se, as the classical depiction of Piety is Aeneas carrying his elderly father out of Troy in Virgil's "Aeneid." It is one of the core civic virtues, and to denounce Mr. Vicente as some religious zealot based upon his appeal to Piety can be classified, at best, as ignorance.

I refuse to allow the substitution of a magic-based reality for my own. I am not surprised the everyday dictionary interpretation of "piety" as used worldwide in everyday literature and conversation is twisted into a different self-serving doublespeak meaning for religious purposes. World history is full of examples.

Christian conservatives are playing an ancient game using religion to separate the world into “us” and “them.” All religion has poisoned and hampered the growth of civilization, becoming more dangerous when the “us and them” worldview grows rigid — when the “we” claim moral (or theological) superiority over others, keeping faith and family the top priority while attempting to impose religious beliefs on non-believers. Pray all you want, as often as you need, wherever the need; the problems comes when you try forcing me against my will to bend a knee, bow down, or submit to magic.

Simply stated, religion comes from a period of human prehistory where nobody - not even the mighty Democritus who concluded that all matter was made from atoms - had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge (as well as for comfort, reassurance, and other infantile needs). Today the least educated of my children knows much more about the natural order than any of the founders of religion. Perhaps this is why they seem so uninterested in sending fellow humans to hell. Knowledge will always be the bane of religion and is the primary reason for homeschooling -- preventing children the knowledge that contradicts religious ideology.

Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar, except today television is replacing the bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace.

But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse under penalty of death. And if we chance to forget what that must have been like, we have only to look to those states and societies where the clergy still has the power to dictate its own terms. The pathetic vestiges of this can still be seen, in modern societies, in the efforts made by religion to secure control over society, control over education, control over a woman's reproductive health, or to exempt itself from tax, or to pass laws forbidding people to insult its omnipotent and omniscient deity, or even his prophet, often represented as a bearded magical man living in the sky who grants wishes while the diety threatens damnation (or worse) for failures.

Can you tell me which dictionary publishes even just a single one of your many different interpretative definitions for the word "piety"? I am standing by, Oxford, Webster, and Funk & Wagonals at the ready.

Well, now I will be patronizing. I understand what a "government-business connection" is. I don't need generalized descriptions or dictionary definitions. My question was quite clear......what specific local examples can be pointed out? If' the argument is going to be roped from the national level to the local level, all I'm asking is for the statement to be justified with evidence not rhetoric.

You asked Vicente for examples to a question. He did not answer. He might never answer as is his perogative. Not necessarily a good political move, but.....whatdayagonnado?

Someone else provided a detailed answer and provided the examples you sought. Not likely the source was a dictionary.

Still not satisfied, now all you are asking for is the equivalent of a grand jury indictment for an unsolved crime?

Great kite flying weather we're having, isn't it?


Yes,sir. It has been mighty windy of late...............

The wind has a foul smell in it.

Yes, sir. Some sails are not as full as they used to be. Ratigan and Vicente both seem to have withdrawn from the public forum.

I have just one simple question for the two public office candidates, Ratigan and Vicente:

Do you believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute?

ThankGodForMakingMeAnAtheist commenten in part as follows: You said: "I wish not to lie to you..."
Why not say something much more profound, like 'I will not lie to you'? Well, here we go again with the product of Warren County schools... Why can you not take as face value the statements of someone who may not talk like "y'all"??? Thank gawd Conkey has decided he needs to spend more time with his day job (hey, what happened to the family???). We need new blood who do not talk in cliches. Conkey and Ratigan have been castigating us for (1) not voting (WRONG... I VOTE!!!) and not running for office. Yet as soon as someone who is not one of the "good" ole boys decides to run, they try to cut him off at the knees. Someday Warren County/Front Royal will LEARN (hahahahaha) that it pays to vote in one's own interest!!!! When they do, they will vote for Manuel Vicente. There are a lot of things WORSE than not having EXPERIENCE with the political process in Warren County. Mr. Vicente has my vote!!!!!! Why? Because he really cares about Warren County!

Mr. scotsman -
Will you share with me what Vicente has said or done that proves to you he really cares about Warren County?

Mr. scotsman -
Do you believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute?

Mr. scotsman -
Do you understand the phrase "I wish" and the phrase "I will" have the same meaning and are normally used in the same context interchangeably in the English language? Are those meanings and usages the same or different in Warren County when compared with anywhere else in the United States?

Mr. Ratigan, Mr. Vicente -
Do each of you believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute?


I asked you a question earlier and I was hoping you would answer it sometime. Why would one "thank God" for making him/her an atheist? Another question is do you really believe that "God made you" to be an atheist?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Yes, previously you asked a question I deemed to be rhetorical (not requiring an answer). First, as you have chosen to ask it yet again I conclude your understanding of irony is somewhat incomplete, causing confusion about what is the meaning of my screen name. Second, many writers use the concept of irony to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Third, no doubt if you are a religious person, depending upon your faith, you may understand a creation myth/story of some sort that describes the world and everything it contains (including me) was created due to the handiwork of a maker, a deity (a god) who possesses magical powers unknown to science or mere thinking mortals such as yourself. Fourth, an atheist person (me) denies or disbelieves the existence of a deity, a supreme being or a god. Therefore, an atheist does not have a religious belief; I also do not have a belief in magic, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, a soul, santa clause, reincarnation, big foot, satan, the devil, hell, fairy dust, and many other things that can exist only within an imagination.

So, if you can combine the above 4 explanations into one concept and then generate a phrase that is appropriate to accommodating irony instantly recognizable to a religious person and an atheist person, you can easily understand why my choice became the screen name I use. The irony is, of course, if an atheist does not believe in a god how is it then possible for an atheist to thank something that does not exist?

And so Mr. simonsays, do you believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute?

Looks like nobody wants to answer your question.

I wonder what good reason could possibly exist for Ratigan, Vicente, 'simonsays', and 'scotsman' to avoid answering the question?

Scott Walker, the governor of Wisconsin, is now facing a million-plus signature recall because he did not tell voters the truth concerning his true intentions if elected.

Local candidates for public office may be hiding their true intent if elected to impose their religious philosophies upon the face of local government, violating the Constitutionally guaranteed separation of church and state.

Every religion seeks to force their beliefs on everybody not like themselves. That is the underlying reason why the Pilgrims left England to seek refuge in America. Today's Tea Party evangelical fundamentalists seem to think separation of church and state uniquely does not apply to them. The same may be said concerning Muslims and Roman Catholics who believe the laws of their church supercedes the laws of men. America's freedom of religion does not open the door to attempt the imposition of a theocracy upon its government.

Mr. Timothy Ratigan, Mr. Manuel Vicente, and newly announced candidate Mr. Daryl Funk, one question for you:

Do you believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute?

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