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Protesters: Health care law attacks religion

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Citizens stand on the lawn of the Warren County Courthouse in Front Royal at noon on Friday as part of Human LIfe International’s outrage at federal requirement that employers provide insurance coverage that includes contraception, sterilization and drugs that cause abortions. Rich Cooley/Daily

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Mary Stanford of Front Royal speaks while holding her son, Jack, 2, during the Stand Up For Religious Movement which was held for one hour Friday on the lawn of the Warren County Courthouse. Rich Cooley/Daily

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Mary Stanford of Front Royal speaks while holding her son, Jack, 2, during the Stand Up For Religious Movement which was held for one hour Friday on the lawn of the Warren County Courthouse. Rich Cooley/Daily

200 to 300 denounce 'contraceptive mandate'

By Joe Beck -- jbeck@nvdaily.com

FRONT ROYAL -- A rally led by a Front Royal-based Catholic organization drew 200 to 300 people to the front of the Warren County Courthouse on Friday in protest over parts of President Obama's health care reform law.

The audience listened to eight speakers denounce the law for what they described as "a contraceptive mandate" that requires employers to provide insurance coverage that includes contraception, sterilization and drugs that cause abortions.

Supporters of the law dispute assertions that the law covers abortion-inducing drugs. They contend that the drugs in question are FDA-approved methods of contraception.

The Rev. Peter West, vice president for missions for Human Life International, called the law an assault on freedom of religion. Employers who oppose birth control and abortion for religious reasons have a right to refuse to pay for insurance coverage that offers such drugs, he said.

"Our founding documents recognize that our rights come from God. They are not concessions granted by the government," West said. "Can you imagine Thomas Jefferson supporting Obama's health care plan, which attacks freedom of religion?"

Human Life International, which is headquartered in Front Royal, describes itself as the "world's largest international and pro-life family organization" spanning 100 countries on six continents.

Human Life International organized Friday's rally, which came as the U.S. Supreme Court is preparing for three days of hearings challenging the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act. The court arguments do not directly involve the conflict over women's reproductive rights and religious freedom. Instead, the focus will be on the law's requirement that most Americans obtain medical insurance or receive a financial penalty for failing to do so.

Obama clashed with Catholic leaders over insurance coverage for birth control a few weeks ago. The president agreed to scale back some of the requirements for religious institutions, a compromise that satisfied some Catholic organizations, but did little to placate others.

Mary Stanford, a mother who homeschools her children, told the audience that she also opposed the law as an attack on religious freedom.

"This is not a Catholic issue," she said. "It affects every person in this country who values the freedom to follow their conscience."

Two audience members said they attended the rally because they shared the same concerns as the speakers.

"They're taking away our religious freedom, what we believe in," said Bill Castellan of Front Royal.

Castellan's companion, John Janaro, also of Front Royal, said he hoped the rally, one of more than 140 being held nationally by conservative religious activists, would be "the start of a people's movement that will spark minds and hearts."

"I am amazed I have to be here today in the United States of America to stand up for a fundamental right of the Constitution of the United States," Janaro said.


This is just one reason I don't believe in organized religion.


Do these 200-300 people not have a job to be at on the middle of a Friday?
Birth Control isn't only for avoiding an UNWANTED pregnancy. There are other medical issues these pills help with. Denying coverage for them, not only amps up UNWANTED pregnancies, but also poses health risks to other women.
These religious fanatics, need to keep their perfectly clean noses out of everyone else's business. Just like you feel it's not the government's place to tell you, you have to provide this coverage; it is NOT your place to deny it.
Get over yourself, get over your righteousness, get a life. There are far more important things to be concerned with. Jesus loves you whether you take birth control or not.

Bill and John are you overlooking the verses that condems hidden salami? Or do you just say sorry on Sunday like the rest of the idiots?

Mr. West I dont see Mr. Jefferson supporting anything of Obamas except one of his great grandmas which I am sure he would have supported firmly for about 10 minutes.

This local Catholic church led anti-women's rights demonstration is symptomatic of the greater danger posed by religious fanatics. Once again, a vocal minority is threatening women's rights to reproductive health.

The relationship between physical health and mental health is now well understood to have a strong connection to the sexual function, or dysfunction. Can it be a coincidence that all religions claim the right to legislate in matters of sex? The principal way in which Catholic believers inflict on themselves, on each other, and on nonbelievers, has always been their claim to a monopoly to legislate in this sphere. The framers of the U.S. Constitution realized the iron fisted reach of religion would sabotage a true democracy if there was not an equally iron fisted mandate to keep church and state separate.

Most religions (with the exception of the few cults that actually permit or encourage it) do not have to bother much with enforcing the taboo on incest. Like murder and theft, this is usually found to be abhorrent to humans without any further explanation. But merely to survey the history of sexual dread and proscription, as codified by religion in general, and Catholics in particular, is to be met with a very disturbing connection between extreme prurience and extreme repression. Almost every sexual impulse has been made the occasion for prohibition, guilt, and shame. Manual sex, oral sex, anal sex, non-missionary position sex: to name it is to discover a fearsome ban upon it. Even in modern and hedonistic America, several states legally define "sodomy" as that which is not directed at face-to-face heterosexual procreation. Religion's one real strength is the knowledge when they control a mans testicles and a woman's ovaries, their hearts and minds will follow.

Why should we observers of this demonstration not ask where were these Catholic folks when the Vatican and its vast network of dioceses was forced to admit complicity in a huge racket of child rape and child torture, mainly but by no means exclusively homosexual, in which known pederasts and sadists were shielded from the law and reassigned to parishes where the pickings of the innocent and defenseless were often richer. Where were these demonstrators then?

The narrow focus of these anti-abortion Catholic demonstrators reveals they are totally controlled by their church, perhaps, even emboldened to try gaining political control of the local Republican Committee as was reported by the NV Daily in their article from March 22, "McHugh: Ratigan a 'sore loser' " that described a Catholic led anti-abortion faction was seeking election to the chair and vice-chair positions.

Today it is women's reproductive rights, tomorrow will it be religious instruction in public schools taught by Catholic priests?

The Front Royal catholics are very different from the average catholic. I grew up catholic, but refuse to attend church in Front Royal because of the Christendom influence, which borders on being a cult.

What these people do on their time is their business, some may have taken time off work to be there, others may not currently have a job in this economy, others may stay home while their spouse works, but that's their business.

they aren't denying anyone access to anything. Anyone is free to buy anything they choose and as much as they want

They are making the point that organizations shouldn't be forced to pay to provide services that are against their religious beliefs. It is their right to deny it when it is their money being used to pay for it.

you are right in one aspect. It is everyone else's business, they agree completely with that, that's why they don't want to pay for it.

Birth control pills = hormone pills. Hormone pills can be used for chemical castration. Chemical castration can and should be used on the vile individuals that commit horrific sex crimes against our youth. The church has been dealing with a public and media nightmare in recent years over scores of priestly sex abuse scandals. Be careful what you ask for. The church needs to focus on cleaning their own house.


What about the rights of workers at Catholic hospitals, colleges etc not to have another's religion forced upon them? Freedom "from" is just as important as freedom of. Yes, I'm aware the standard bs answer is "find another job"...because we have such a great economy that there are so many more jobs than people able to fill them right? If you want a religious exemption then only hire people that believe in the same archaic beliefs you have. This argument gets personal for me as a woman and a mother. I have a teenage daughter on the pill for health related issues. So lets look at the rights arguments

Limbaugh Viagra Man- My daughter must be a (enter lots of derogatory to women terms) My daughter goes to church and school. Pregnancy is the last thing I am worried about, even if said school is Skyline.

FoxSpews- You can get it a WalMart for $4. Yeah maybe you can get generic regular pills for that, what my daughter is on does not offer a generic and runs $70-100 a month without insurance depending on the pharmacy. So your WalMart excuse doesn't fly.

FoxSpews- They can go to "Planned Parenthood" or a clinic of the like. THE SAME CLINICS THE RIGHT PROMISES TO SHUT DOWN??? Your answer is to go to the place you are fighting tooth and nail to close?? HYPOCRITES!

As a woman, I say to any man that isn't an OB/GYN, your opinion on this is irrelevant because you understand exactly ZERO on the situation, so MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. To other "women" that do not see the importance of this, I'm just disgusted that I have to be under the same banner as you.

To Catholics, if you disagree with a medication, fine DON'T USE IT. Its that simple.

If we submit to the religious beliefs of one, does that mean others get exceptions?? Does certain religious employers get to opt out of paying for blood transfusions, or prenatal care all together, or any other list of services that different religions find fault with? Or does it only matter when its your own belief system?

Well put A'Katrina. While our great Constitution protects Freedom of Religion, it unfortunately does not protect us in freedom from religion. In this case it appears to be a double standard. These "groups" want what they want in the name of their religion, but don't seem to respect the rights and freedoms of the individual's that don't hold the same level of beliefs as themselves.

I wish some people cared as much about a living child as they do about an embryo. Yes, by all means clean your own house and keep your nose out of the bedroom. . .

If you need a real mission, go after these perverts who sexually abuse our children; help women who are trying to get away from abusive men and/or are trying to save their own children. Go after the "do nothing" politicians who continue to ignore the plight of education in this country.

Encourage birth control before we run out of space to stand or water to drink. We all need to find a way to get this sex-driven, violent entertainment business to refocus on something worthwhile. TV is pure garbage and is being watched by too many children.


2 things here.

1) if these zealots are so worried about this, why are they using insurance companies to begin with? If god is so great, why do they need insurance to begin with? Don't most ins. companies cover contraception in 2012 already.

2) The Catholic/Christians religious rights DO NOT trump the peoples. So either shut your doors to employing people who don't believe in your fantasy god or accept they have rights too.Also, it is time for these madrasses to pay taxes if they want to be political.

On a side note, I recall seeing these Christiandom/human life momos buying condoms and beer at the store in Shen Shores and throwing parties behind that store in the field. so shut you hypocritical mouths and join us in 2012.

seems to me, that "sex driven and violent entertainment" isn't for kids to begin with.....want to blame someone for that, blame the parents, not society.

The Catholic Church hid child molesters and moved them to new victims. for that AFAIC they should lock the doors and break out a RICO case against them as an ongoing criminal enterprise.
I quit believing in the invisible man when I was 5, as an adult you should be given a mental exam

Yep, same thing at some of the monastaries around the winchester with the beer(we all know I am not against beer). Seen cases of beer stacked chest high in one. Can only imagine what those funky old dudes do to each other and the young men after getting tipsy. Act like everybody else all week long(actually a lot worse) , But it gets washed away after the Weekend repent. Hilarious!

I apologize in advance for this lengthy opinion, however I wish to join others whose like-minded comments are now brought forward for expression in this forum. The short interpretation of the following comment contravenes the headline implying 'health care is attacking religion'. The obverse rings more true, it is religion that is attacking health care.

Two instances - one of immoral teaching and the other of immoral practice - may be adduced. The immoral teaching concerns abortion. As a materialist, I think it has been demonstrated that an embryo is a separate body and entity, and not merely (as some really did used to argue) a growth on or in the female body. There used to be feminists who would say that it was more like an appendix or even - this was seriously maintained - a tumor. That nonsense seems to have stopped. Of the considerations that have stopped it, one is the fascinating and moving view provided by the sonogram, and another is the survival of "premature" babies of featherlike weight, who have achieved "viability" outside the womb. This is yet another way in which science can make common cause with humanism. Just as no human being of average moral capacity could be indifferent to the sight of a woman being kicked in the stomach, so nobody could fail to be far more outraged if the woman in question were pregnant. Embryology confirms morality. The words "unborn child," even when used in a politicized manner, describe a material reality. However, this only opens the argument rather than closes it.

There may be many circumstances in which it is not desirable to carry a fetus to full term. Either nature or god appears to appreciate this, since a very large number of pregnancies are "aborted," so to speak, because of malformations, and are politely known as "miscarriages." Sad though this is, it is probably less miserable an outcome than the vast number of deformed or idiot children who would otherwise have been born, or stillborn, or whose brief lives would have been a torment to themselves and others. As with evolution in general, therefore, in utero we see a microcosm of nature and evolution itself. Thus, not all conceptions are, or ever were, going to lead to births. And ever since the mere struggle for existence began to abate, it has been an ambition of the human intelligence to gain control over the rate of reproduction. Families who are at the mercy of mere nature, with its inevitable demand for profusion, will be tied to a cycle that is not much better than animal. The best way of achieving a measure of control is by prophylaxis, which has been restlessly sought since records were kept and which has in our own time become relatively foolproof and painless. The second-best fallback solution, which may sometimes be desirable for other reasons, is termination of pregnancy: an expedient which is regretted by many even when it has been undertaken in dire need. All thinking people recognize a painful conflict of rights and interests in this question, and strive to achieve a balance. The only proposition that is completely useless, either morally or practically, is the wild statement that sperms and eggs are all potential lives which must not be prevented from fusing and that, when united however briefly, have souls and must be protected by law. On this basis, an intrauterine device that prevents the attachment of the egg to the wall of the uterus is a murder weapon, and an ectopic pregnancy (the disastrous accident that causes the egg to begin growing inside the Fallopian tube) is a human life instead of an already doomed egg that is also an urgent threat to the life of the mother.

If I cannot definitively prove that the usefulness of religion is in the past, and that its foundational books are transparent fables, and that it is a man-made imposition, and that it has been an enemy of science and inquiry, and that it has subsisted largely on lies and fears, and been the accomplice of ignorance and guilt as well as of slavery, genocide, racism, and tyranny, I can most certainly claim that religion is now fully aware of these criticisms. It is also fully aware of the ever-mounting evidence, concerning the origins of the cosmos and the origin of species, which consign it to marginality if not to irrelevance. Religion has outlived any claim to usefullness.

I find the hypocrisy of these people amazing and feel sorry for the brainwashed youngsters seen in the background of those pictures.
Mr. West, you talk about "freedom of religion" yet it is the christian right that constantly pushes to legislate their own morality on everyone else!! If you don't approve of something, i.e. abortion, concraception, etc. then dont do it and leave other people alone.

Of course in a perfect world we would have the parents deciding what children should watch on TV, however, it's pretty hard to find anything that doesn't glorify blood 'n guts and violence today. What would be wrong with some decent television? Even the news programs are idiotic fluff with their sports-driven focus and continual rehash of every crime committed.

Public TV still reports the news and offers many intelligent programs too, of course. They have decent shows for kids as well.

If an adult can't live without all this trash - they sure have other choices. Just try to see a decent movie anymore. I gave up long ago, but who needs it? I still read.

Many parents today are not aware of the damage being done and some don't even consider it a problem. Kids going to school with guns and trying to kill each other was unheard of twenty years ago. Society 'R US and we can influence sponsors of TV garbage much faster than trying to change the church!

Don't misunderstand - anyone who goes after our kids needs to be brought to justice. I do not condone the cover up by the Catholic Church: absolutely not! There are many issues that need to be addressed but children today are getting a lot of mixed messages.

I find it interesting that the Christian/Catholic will call any other religions teaching kids from birth the "absolute truth" of a book are brainwashed, yet it is ok and not that when you are brainwashing jesus into someone..... These people need to read up on Horus and see exactly where their chosen myth came from.

personally i turned off TV over a year ago, but there are still a lot of good shows on, just have to control your kids viewing.

If a kid can't tell the difference between TV and reality, I still blame mom and dad.

The Catholic Church is guilty of crimes far worse than anything they demonstrated against on Friday. It seems to me they are a bit misguided. Their focus should be on cleaning up the mess they have in the church instead of forcing their values down the throats of people who don’t prescribe to their doctrine. The relationship between a patient and their doctor should be a private one and any medical option should be available. If a drug or procedure is recommended, the patient always has the right to decline, but don’t advocate taking away that option for others.


" The relationship between a patient and their doctor should be a private one and any medical option should be available. If a drug or procedure is recommended, the patient always has the right to decline, but don’t advocate taking away that option for others."

You are exactly correct on this and that is the whole point. This is an argument about ability to receive proper care.

We can spend all day talking about whether to believe in god, whether abortion should be a legal alternative, or even attack the church on the issues it has faced, but all that does is detract from the main point. Viable medical options should be covered, its a choice whether to use them or not.

Hard to believe there's so much anti-Catholic bigotry in these comments. There's no mention in the story that a Baptist minister spoke emphatically against the mandate as well at this event.

This isn't a Catholic issue, it's a First Amendment of the Constitution issue that affects every American citizen. Wake up people.

There is more than enough evidence that contraception leads to abortion. One of the most notorious abortionist in the world, Dr. Malcolm Potts, who once was the medical director for International Planned Parenthood in London said: " As people turn to contraception, there will be a rise , not a fall, in the abortion rate." Furthermore, some "contraception" methods are in fact abortifacients like the pill and IUD. See this link for the facts: http://www.hli.org/index.php/abortifacients/208?task=view
You can see more information about "the pill" here: http://www.hli.org/files/PLTP%20Negative%20Effects%20of%20the%20Pill.pdf

For all you anti-Catholic bigots out there, think about this excerpt from: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2012/03/01/Obama-Risks-$100-Billion-if-Catholic-Hospitals-Close.aspx#page1:

"The Catholic Church has perhaps the most extensive private health-care delivery system in the nation. It operates 12.6 percent of hospitals in the U.S., according to the Catholic Health Association of the U.S., accounting for 15.6 percent of all admissions and 14.5 percent of all hospital expenses, a total for Catholic hospitals in 2010 of $98.6 billion. Whom do these hospitals serve? Catholic hospitals handle more than their share of Medicare (16.6 percent) and Medicaid (13.65) discharges, meaning that more than one in six seniors and disabled patients get attention from these hospitals, and more than one in every eight low-income patients as well. Almost a third (32 percent) of these hospitals are located in rural areas, where patients usually have few other options for care.

Compared to their competition, Catholic hospitals take a leading role in providing less-profitable services to patients. They lead the sector in breast cancer screenings, nutrition programs, trauma, geriatric services, and social work. In most of these areas, other non-profits come close, but hospitals run by state and local governments fall significantly off the pace. Where patients have trouble paying for care, Catholic hospitals cover more of the costs. For instance, Catholic Health Services in Florida provides free care to families below 200 percent of federal poverty line, accepting Medicaid reimbursements as payment in full, and caps costs at 20 percent of household income for families that fall between 200 percent and 400 percent of the federal poverty line.

Imagine the impact if these hospitals shut down, discounting the other 400-plus health centers and 1,500 specialized homes that the Catholic Church operates as part of its mission that would also disappear. Thanks to the economic models of these hospitals, no one will rush to buy them. One in six patients in the current system would have to vie for service in the remaining system, which would have to absorb almost $100 billion in costs each year to treat them. Over 120,000 beds would disappear from an already-stressed system.

The poor and working class families that get assistance from Catholic benefactors would end up having to pay more for their care than they do under the current system. Rural patients would have to travel farther for medical care, and services like social work and breast-cancer screenings would fall to the less-efficient government-run institutions. That would not only impact the poor and working class patients, but would create much longer wait times for everyone else in the system. Finally, over a half-million people employed by Catholic hospitals now would lose their jobs almost overnight, which would have a big impact on the economy as well as on health care.

Some may doubt that the bishops would create this kind of havoc and disruption, and perhaps President Obama believes Cardinal George and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to be bluffing. However, Obama may want to read St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, and his Principle and Foundation of faith, which informs Catholics on the priority of salvation. The first task of mankind, according to St. Ignatius, is to serve God and “save his soul,” and “other things on the face of the earth” should be used only as long as they serve that purpose. When they become a hindrance to salvation, St. Ignatius warns to “rid himself of them.”

If Obama insists on forcing the Catholic Church to fund and facilitate access to products and services they believe imperil their own souls and those of others, the bishops will simply stop employing people in these religious organizations – and once those doors close, they may never reopen."

Wow! All of our constitutional rights are at stake. It is Rev West not Mr. West. And he makes it very clear that it is a constitutional issue. And all you can do is make this into a Catholic Issue. One really has to wonder just how you would've reacted if let's say the Mormons or Lutherans or Baptists (Which I am a member of) would've sponsored the rally. I am so tired of all of America Ganging up on the Catholic Church. Grow Up People and see what is comming down the path. If President Obama (Who I voted for but will not vote again for him) can deliberately cast aside the rights of the Catholics in this Country then how much longer will it be before he casts aside all of our rights? Look around People! We are standing at an edge of a cliff. If all of America doesn't stand up and shout NO MORE then it will be all of us who will loose our God Given Rights!

Our Lord Jesus Christ said to us that people will curse you for knowing Him. My Fellow Christians who are Catholics I stand with you. I see the Danger Coming! I will pray with you and for you during this trying time. For we are all Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ!

Diana, If no one protects the rights of the Unborn Children then who will protect you? If our Nation can kill the unborn Children what is to stop them killing the handicapped or the elderly or the children with Downes Syndrome. They are probably already doing it in the womb. All life is sacred. If it is only ensure the survival of our Human Race. If we kill the future generations of our society in the womb what will happen our Nation?

And how much longer will you blame the Entire Catholic Church for the crimes of a few? I am a Baptist. I was molested by a Baptist Minister. News Flash lady the Sexual Molestation is everywhere! Not just the Catholic Church. Yes they have a problem. And they need to take care of it. And they are. But the Sexualy Molestation Scandal is every where. It is in other churches and schools too. But I guess it is easier to target an easy target. Attack the Catholic Churh. Why not. People have been doing it since it's founding over 2000 years ago. And chances are they will not attack back. I guess that is why it is easy to attack them. Shame on you!

Yes, the truth will set you free.

Religion's weaknesses always point to, "the greater the absurdity, the stronger the belief in it"... faith is at its greatest when its teachings are least amenable to reason. For the topic of this newspaper article, it was a given the religious faithful would self-anoint themselves as victims of a government gone wild, a persecution the religious faithful believes is unjustly deserved.

All major confrontations over the right to free thought, free speech, and free inquiry have taken the same form, that of a religious attempt to assert the literal and limited mind over the ironic and inquiring one.

One recalls the question that was asked by the Chinese when the first Christian missionaries made their appearance. If god has revealed himself, how is it that he has allowed so many centuries to elapse before informing the Chinese?

It was never that difficult to see that religion was a cause of hatred and conflict, and that its maintenance depended upon ignorance and superstition. Satirists and poets, as well as philosophers and men of science, were capable of pointing out that if triangles had gods their gods would have three sides, just as Thracian gods had blond hair and blue eyes.

The Englishman Thomas Paine's Age of Reason marks almost the first time that frank contempt for organized religion was openly expressed. It had a tremendous worldwide effect. His American friends and contemporaries, including many framers of the U.S. Constitution, were partly inspired by Paine to declare independence from the Hanover usurpers and their private Anglican Church of England.

It was these non-believers in the American Colonies who achieved an extraordinary and unprecedented thing that governs all U.S. citizens today: The writing of a democratic and republican Constitution that made no mention of god and that mentioned religion only when guaranteeing that it would always be separated from the state.

This separation of church and state is the mandate that religious zealots have the biggest problem obeying.

First - I wouldn't click on ANY link that takes you to the bogus HLI website. HLI is political organization that skews the facts about abortion - thanks, but no thanks.

To "Pro-Life" - its not anti-catholic bigotry, as you claim. The catholic church continues to shoot itself in the foot, with outdated and outrageous management. Why hasn't the pope taken a firm stand on child abuse, by mandating that any report of priest child-abuse be immediately reported to local law enforcement? They continue to sweep this issue under the rug, protecting their pedophile-priests. If they took the same hard line on this issue, as they have with abortion, there would be far less "anti-catholic" viewpoints. "Bigotry" isn't a fair label - people are critical of the church for logical reasons.

Locally, the Christendom College influence has ruined the catholic church. Case in point - the priest that was performing exorcisms. For some reason, not many people seemed outraged that exorcisms were being performed, right here in our own community. The cult that people refer to as “St. Johns Catholic Church” should have gone on the record stating that there is no place in the church for any form of exorcism. Instead, they sat back quietly and said nothing - just like they do when a priest is accused of being a pedophile.

One last point – by not standing up to, and demanding a change in the way the church handles cases of pedophilia by priests, the members of the church are condoning this practice. It’s really not hard to understand why people have a problem with the catholic church - just look in the mirror!


On a side note, you have no "freedom from tyranny" if you are forcing your belief on someone else's physical reality, because you became an enforcer of tyranny.

HLI is headquartered in Front Royal? Lord, I used to love living here.

Thank you so much for pointing me in the direction of Human Life International. I have spent the last hour looking at Human Life International's Website. I do not find anywhere on that website that as you put it, "skews" the facts about abortion. I also don't understand why you call Human Life International a Political Organization. Oh Wait, unless of course you call murdering an unborn child a Political Issue. Oh and if you call going against God's Plan for Marriage a Political Issue. News Flash mvctoys these issues were biblical issues first. Read the Ten Commandments and the Bible. You can't call Human Life International a Political Organization just because they follow the Teachings of Jesus Christ.

And here we go about the Sex Abuse Scandal again. Here is a thought. If you care so much about stopping Sexual Abuse then why don't you direct your energies at Planned Parenthood. That Organization has been breaking the law everytime they provide Contraception and abortion services to minor Girls. Or have you forgotten that it is a crime for minors to engage in sexual activity? And have you forgotten that it is a crime when you fail to report suspected Sex Abuse. Planned Parenthood skirts the law every chance they get. Why because they feel they are above the law. And with people like you deffending the likes of Planned Parenthood I can see why. Let's see you rant on them for a while. Then maybe you will have a little credidbility in my eyes.

And somehow I doubt that there would be less Anti Catholic attacks if the Catholic Church took a hard line against Sex abuse caused by priests. Why? Because the Arlington Diocese has taken a very hard line against Sex Abuse and does have in place a mandatory reporting mandate in place. I've done the research. And yet the attacks keep comming.

I don't know much about this Christendom College but from what I can tell they are good Christians. Could it be that you are just really upset that Front Royal has a large Catholic Community? Are you prejudice against Catholics? Really? Are you that immature to actually be prejudice about Catholics? Wow.

I still stand with my Fellow Christians, the Catholics on this fight.

At what point did Front Royal stop being a bad place to live? HLI Has been a part of the Front Royal Community since 1996.

All religions promise immortality. Some reinforce this promise claiming infallibility accompanied with song and dance, some with threats of hell. In this regard, catholics, and baptists, and all the other religions are identical tyrants.

It is tough to believe a compassionate and divine god, if such a concept actually existed, would communicate with ordinary people only through the medium of shamen, magicians, sooth-sayers, Popes, television evangelists, rabbis, the Pat Robertson / Billy Graham fakers, and ordained priests of organized religions or images magically appearing on burnt toast, each with its own perpetuation of the tyranny that is religion.

Why would not an all-powerful god eliminate these unnecessary and greed-driven middlemen and simply speak directly to every individual, letting all believers throughout the world simultaneously hear that voice in their heads, eliminating wars between feuding Arab and Jewish states, and unifying all flavors of religion under one all-encompassing deity?

These are the simple questions that cause the faithful to honestly question the validity of their faith or continue to delude themselves consuming the unsatisfying slop, 'my god works in strange ways'. Strange, indeed, is the tyrannical truth and a tyrannical lie spoken at the same time.

To Diana regarding the "embryo:"

Dr. Jerome Lejeune of Paris, France, was a physician and Doctor of Science and Professor of Genetics for 25 years. Dr. Lejeune discovered the genetic cause for Down’s Syndrome. He received awards such as the Kennedy Prize and the Memorial Allen Award Medal; he was a member of The American Academy of Arts and Science, the Royal Society of Medicine of London, and the Royal Society of Science in Stockholm. Dr. Lejeune died April 3, 1994.

Dr. Lejeune noted that the very first cell, the fertilized egg cell or zygote, is "the most specialized cell under the sun".

In the words of Dr. Lejeune: "Each of us has a very precise starting moment which is the time at which the whole necessary and sufficient genetic information is gathered inside one cell, the fertilized egg, and this is the moment of fertilization. There is not the slightest doubt about that and we know that this information is written on a kind of ribbon which we call the DNA…Nature has used the smallest possible language to carry the information from father to children, from mother to children, from generation to generation…At no time is the human being a blob of protoplasm. As far as your nature is concerned, I see no difference between the early person that you were at conception and the late person which you are now. You were and are a human being."

When Dr. Lejeune testified in the Louisiana legislature he stated, "Recent discoveries by Dr. Alec Jeffreys of England demonstrate that the information (on the DNA molecule) is stored by a system of bar codes not unlike those found on products at the supermarkets…it’s not any longer a theory that each of us is unique."

In 1989, during testimony on The Seven Human Embryos in Tennessee, Dr. Lejeune made the following observation:

"...as soon as he has been conceived, a man is a man."

To A'Katrina regarding her statement: "On a side note, you have no "freedom from tyranny" if you are forcing your belief on someone else's physical reality, because you became an enforcer of tyranny."

1. There is objective truth. We legislate morality all the time--murder, asault, theft, libel, etc...These moral evils, as violations of the rights of persons must be reflected in the law and made illegal. Legalized abortion is the enshrinement in law of oppression, stepping on the weak and defenseless. Suppose someone said: "I'm personally opposed to rape, but I will not impose that belief on potential rapists." How absurd! This argument is as absurd in the case of abortion as it is in that of rape. The law must protect all innocent persons from assault. The morality of not raping, and of not murdering a fellow human being is not "my morality" or "our morality" but morality itself. We should not crush the baby in the womb. All laws impose, otherwise you would have anarchy.

2. Moral relativism leads to tyranny. History proves this.Sad thing, most people don't even realize this.

Well, let me start by saying I am a Catholic (probably soon to be excommunicated, but here goes.. ;-) ).

The issue here was shifted from being a Constitutional one when the mandate of paying for birth control within the health insurance plan was shifted from the employer (Catholic Hospitals, etc..), to the insurance companies... At that moment it went from a service that the employer was being forced to provide, to being a service that is provided by the insurance company that the employer happens to subscribe to.... Its a nuanced argument, but an accurate one.

Catholics are not being forced to use contraception, so no freedom of religion is being violated here. If my fellow Catholics wish to start some place in this debate, I suggest they start with the 60% of Catholic women who agreed with this mandate. The church can't even keep its own flock in line and they want to go out and fight the world on this issue? Really?

By all means, remind good Catholics during the sermon/homily that birth control is a no-no. They will either listen or they will not, but either way the government is not interfering with their choice to use birth-control...

As for the rest of my leanings? Yes, I am pro-choice, but let's analyze what myself and many others mean when we say that..... I personally believe that an unborn child is a gift and I would never personally move to have my wife terminate a pregnancy, no matter how unplanned or "inconvenient" it might be... That said? I do not feel I have the right to make that decision for everyone else...

As for contraception? Well, if it is the belief that a sperm and an egg are somehow individual lives, then I am guilty of genocide... There, I said it... LOL!!!


I don't know if NVD chose not to allow my main commentary to your initial long posting or something happened in the send process so, shorter points.
1- Preventive birth control is not abortion because there is no baby created to begin with
2- Its a bluff, the church will not close its hospitals, etc, for a variety of reasons such as medical liability to current patients, moral culpability to said patients (because reality is when standing judgement it is a far worse offense to throw the sick, elderly to the wolves than to provide insurance coverage for female reproductive issues) and because it would be the end of the Catholic church in America, in the court of public opinion sacrificing the sick over birth control will not gain the church any favors.
3- Links. I can (and did) find many articles from medical journals or even government statistics that birth control DOES prevent abortion. Common sense tells you if an unwanted pregnancy is prevented to begin with, there is no pregnancy to abort.
4- In answer to your tyranny. Forcing a woman to have a child she does not want is just as much of a "rape". You are enslaving her body and mind, an unwanted pregnancy can be seen as forced torture. Any woman that says she has been through pregnancy and labor with it having 0 effect on her mind/body is a LIAR.

At the end of the day, it still comes down to a simple fact. Who is forcing whom? No one is forced to have an abortion. If you find it to be morally wrong, there is a simple answer, DON'T HAVE ONE. No one is forcing anyone to take/use birth control. If you find it morally wrong, DON'T USE IT. But for the many women who happen to use the pill for other reproductive health problems, your beliefs do not give you the right to force your belief on their reality.

Six More Things Everyone Should Know About the HHS Mandate

1. The rule that created the uproar has not changed at all, but was finalized as is. In the mandate, HHS issued a regulation finalizing the rule first issued in August 2011, “without change.” So religious employers dedicated to serving people of other faiths are still not exempt as “religious employers.” Indeed, the rule describes them as “non-exempt.”

2. The rule leaves open the possibility that even exempt “religious employers” will be forced to cover sterilization. In its August 2011 comments, USCCB warned that the narrow “religious employer” exemption appeared to provide no relief from the sterilization mandate—only the contraception mandate—and specifically sought clarification. (We also noted that a sterilization mandate exists in only one state, Vermont.) HHS provided no clarification, so the risk remains under the unchanged final rule.

3. The new “accommodation” is not a current rule, but a promise that comes due beyond the point of public accountability. Also on Friday evening, HHS issued regulations describing the intention to develop more regulations that would apply the same mandate differently to “non-exempt, non-profit religious organizations”—the charities, schools, and hospitals that are still left out of the “religious employer” exemption. These policies will be developed over a one-year delay in enforcement, so if they turn out badly, their impact will not be felt until August 2013, well after the election.

4. Even if the promises of “accommodation” are fulfilled entirely, religious charities, schools, and hospitals will still be forced to violate their beliefs. If an employee of these second-class-citizen religious institutions wants coverage of contraception or sterilization, the objecting employer is still forced to pay for it as a part of the employer’s insurance plan. There can be no additional cost to that employee, and the coverage is not a separate policy. By process of elimination, the funds to pay for that coverage must come from the premiums of the employer and fellow employees, even those who object in conscience.

5. The “accommodation” does not even purport to help objecting insurers, for-profit religious employers, secular employers, or individuals. In its August 2011 comments, and many times since, USCCB identified all the stakeholders in the process whose religious freedom is threatened—all employers, insurers, and individuals, not just religious employers. Friday’s actions emphasize that all insurers, including self-insurers, must provide the coverage to any employee who wants it. In turn, all individuals who pay premiums have no escape from subsidizing that coverage. And only employers that are both non-profit and religious may qualify for the “accommodation.”
6. Beware of claims, especially by partisans, that the bishops are partisan. The bishops and their staff read regulations before evaluating them. The bishops did not pick this fight in an election year—others did. Bishops form their positions based on principles—here, religious liberty for all, and the life and dignity of every human person—not polls, personalities, or political parties. Bishops are duty bound to proclaim these principles, in and out of season.

To A'Katrina regarding point number 1:

A true contraceptive agent prevents conception by one or more of four specific actions. It can:

•place an actual mechanical barrier such as a condom or cervical cap between the sperm and ovum to prevent them from uniting;
•thicken the cervical mucus;
•inhibit ovulation, thereby preventing the release of a mature ovum; and
•block the Fallopian tube or vas deferens through sexual sterilization.
All of these means prevent a new human being from being created.
By contrast, an abortifacient destroys the preborn child who is already conceived. The general definition of "abortifacient" is "a drug or agent that induces an abortion."
Depending upon the type of abortifacient, this killing can take place at virtually any stage of pregnancy, by preventing implantation of the blastocyst (the very early developing human being), by killing the unborn child shortly after implantation, or by killing the child later in pregnancy.
Pro-abortionists are now distorting even the meanings of the terms "abortion" and "abortifacient" in order to blur the distinction between true contraceptives and abortifacients.

The first type of abortifacient includes drugs and devices designed to continually maintain a certain level of hormones in the woman's body and repeatedly kill early preborn children before or at implantation (without the woman's knowledge). These include;

(1) Oral contraceptives (OCs);

(2) Intrauterine devices (IUDs);

(3) Depo-Provera; and

(4) Norplant and Norplant-2 (Jadelle).

The second type of abortifacient kills a preborn child who is known or suspected to exist. These abortifacients include;

(5) The RU-486 abortion pill;

(6) The methotrexate/misoprostol (M&M) combination; and

(7) "Emergency contraception." This type of abortifacient regime has many forms, including;

• the "Yuzpe Regimen," which consists of taking combined ethinyl estradiol/levonorgestrel pills at a higher than normal dose;

• taking pills specifically designed to cause early abortions. These are often called "emergency contraceptive pills (ECPs)," "morning-after pills (MAPs)" and "postcoital contraception," and consist of high doses of the artificial steroids found in oral contraceptives. Two examples are Plan B and Preven.

To A'Katrina regarding point number 2.

It is not a bluff: In the current issue of the Archdiocese of Chicago’s newspaper, the Catholic New World, Francis Cardinal George has a must-read column in which he explains how high the stakes are in the fight against the HHS contraception mandate.

Never one to mince words, His Eminence states clearly that if the contraception mandate is not rescinded, there will be no Catholic hospitals left in the U.S. in two years.

Perhaps the most important paragraph of the column is the following:

The strangest accusation in this manipulated public discussion has the bishops not respecting the separation between church and state. The bishops would love to have the separation between church and state we thought we enjoyed just a few months ago, when we were free to run Catholic institutions in conformity with the demands of the Catholic faith, when the government couldn’t tell us which of our ministries are Catholic and which not, when the law protected rather than crushed conscience. The state is making itself into a church. The bishops didn’t begin this dismaying conflict nor choose its timing. We would love to have it ended as quickly as possible. It’s up to the government to stop the attack.

The Cardinal goes on to recommend getting a copy of the 2012 Archdiocesan Directory “as a souvenir”:
On page L-3, there is a complete list of Catholic hospitals and health care institutions in Cook and Lake counties. Each entry represents much sacrifice on the part of medical personnel, administrators and religious sponsors. Each name signifies the love of Christ to people of all classes and races and religions. Two Lents from now, unless something changes, that page will be blank.


Lithium. The moment one says "pro-abortionist" ends all logical discussion because your views are already skewed beyond any logic and/or rationale.

To A'Katrina regarding point number 3:

Even those involved in the culture of death know that contraception does not prevent abortion. The Alan Guttmacher, the research arm of Planned Parenthood states:

53% of all women getting abortions were using contraception when they got pregnant …

Year 2000: Rachel K. Jones, Jacqueline E. Darroch and Stanley K. Henshaw. "Contraceptive Use Among U.S.
Women Having Abortions in 2000-2001." Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health [formerly Family
Planning Perspectives] [Guttmacher Institute], November/December 2002 [Volume 34, Number 6], pages 294
to 303. Table 1, "Percentage Distribution of Women Obtaining Abortions in 2002, by Contraceptive Method
Used in the Month of Conception, and of Women at Risk of Unintended Preganancy in 1995, by Contraceptive "Method Used."

Also, a 2009 study by the journal Contraception found, in a 10-year study of women in Spain, that as overall contraceptive use increased from around 49 percent to 80 percent, the elective abortion rate more than doubled.

So, it is not the pro-lifers saying this, it is those who provide abortions.

To A'Katrina regarding point number 4:

Moral relativism leads to tyranny. What about the baby.And yet you will allow the current administration in the White House to force their beliefs on Catholics. That is the epitome of hypocrisy.

To A'Katrina regarding statement of: "Lithium, etc..."

Typical ad hominem attack when you start losing the argument. Not surprising especially when I start using stats from those advocating contraception and abortion that actually support my postion.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a religious extremist that reincarnation wouldn't cure.


For anyone interested in reality:
The Guttmacher report seen here:

that is being quoted a reliable information, is faulty based on its case study. The study was held over women seeking abortions. If you only look at the number of women who were seeking abortion, you ignore the millions of women who use contraception and do not get pregnant. Even the study itself says that of the 54% that did get pregnant, 75% did NOT use contraception correctly.

More interesting

shows the numbers on sterilized women using contraception, even with sterilized spouses as well. Why? Because its not just a medication to prevent pregnancy.

The poster "freedomfromtyranny" appears to be deliberately distorting information posted on the Guttmacher websites. Please allow me to cut, copy, and paste the following information, without comment, and permit you, dear reader, to interpret these facts for yourself:

· Thirty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions identify as Protestant and 28% as Catholic.

· Non-Hispanic white women account for 36% of abortions, non-Hispanic black women for 30%, Hispanic women for 25% and women of other races for 9%.

· About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.

· Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below the federal poverty level.

· Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use.

· Eight percent of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.

· In the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the Supreme Court ruled that women, in consultation with their physician, have a constitutionally protected right to have an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy—that is, before viability—free from government interference.

· In 1992, the Court reaffirmed the right to abortion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. However, the ruling significantly weakened the legal protections previously afforded women and physicians by giving states the right to enact restrictions that do not create an “undue burden” for women seeking abortion. Thirty-five states currently enforce parental consent or notification laws for minors seeking an abortion. The Supreme Court ruled that minors must have an alternative to parental involvement, such as the ability to seek a court order authorizing the procedure.

We got a call today from the anti abortion survey, as soon as they found out we were pro choice they rudely hung up.

These people as far as I am concerned are part of the AOG, who snipes doctors and I simply have no use for them.IIRC some of the folk in the shores can't even attend the rallys anymore because they are thought dangerous.

no one is infringing on their right to practice their religion, and if they have people who work for them who want contraception now they are going to be spending church money on it anyway, so by that the church is already paying for it. So get with reality and join us in 2012 already.

You want your church to open a public hospital, you help all. not your selected few. What is wrong with you people?

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.” - Sinclair Lewis

Look at America today.
How right he was.

To "wondering": The Catholic hospitals are private, not public. You people open your own hosptials.

Talk about dangerous people
1. Which prominent Oklahoma abortionist was having an affair with a topless dancer he had aborted, and then choked his wife with a necktie, beat her over the head with a heavy blunt object hard enough to smash a hole in her skull, and then slammed her face repeatedly onto the floor, murdering her? Local pro-abortionists tried so hard to get his charges dropped that they sent death threats to news agencies, the district attorney, and witnesses against the abortionist.

2. What famous Nazi mass murderer, known as the "Angel of Death" for his thousands of ghastly medical experiments on living patients in the Auschwitz concentration camp, fled Germany at the end of World War II and became a prominent abortionist in South America?

3. What Chicago abortionist, labeled "America's Arch Fiend" by the press, was America's first famous serial killer, having murdered more than fifty people?

4. What Arizona abortionist, who referred to himself as "The Prince of the Pelvis," was convicted of more than 60 counts of sexual abuse and sexual assault and imprisoned for 35 years?

5. What major pro-abortion group vigorously defended Finkel and claimed that his accusers were lying?

6. What New York City abortionist (subsequently known as "Zorro" to his staff) carved his initials on the abdomen of one of his patients with a scalpel because "I thought I did such a beautiful job, I thought I should sign it?" (Hint: This abortionist worked for an abortion mill that was shut down for health and safety violations, and which shipped women like cattle to unlicensed abortion mills in its "Happiness Bus!")

7. Which prominent El Paso abortionist and ardent admirer of Adolf Hitler became a professional wrestler named "The Chinese Bandit" to raise money on the side?

8. What former Nazi SS officer put his wartime skills to use by becoming an abortionist for Kaiser Permanente in Ohio and Hawaii? (Hint: He was so fanatical about saving money that he forced his female staff to urinate in bottles at their desks and was finally killed by the brother of a young girl whom he had given drugs for free sex.)

9. Which prominent Chicago abortionist was charged with making "kiddie porn" featuring his own 3-year-old daughter and, when caught, blamed his prosecution on local pro-lifers?

10. Which world-famous American pro-abortion feminist, a co-founder of the National Organization for Women (NOW), was caught by customs officials at an airport with a load of sado-masochistic magazines depicting women being tortured?

11. What New York City abortionist, who was found guilty of nearly four hundred counts of medical malpractice and incompetence, won the award for the all-time lame excuse by saying that her husband dominated her with Voodoo?

12. What abortionist had sex with a patient just before aborting her, and when caught, told a newspaper, "I believe that if a woman decides to have a termination, it should be done safely, legally and with some dignity?"

13. Which prominent Jackson, Mississippi abortionist, a prolific producer of child pornography, was a member of the International Diaper Pail Foundation, in which the members are infantilists who enjoy wearing diapers, defecating in the diapers, and smearing the feces all over their bodies?

14. What Boston abortionist aborted a living and viable baby boy, deliberately smothered him, was convicted of manslaughter but released on a technicality, and was later rewarded by being given the post of Chairman of the Board of Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA)?

15. What vocal Miami pro-abortionist murdered both of his roommates with an ax, and then called the killings "justifiable homicide" because the roommates had "complained about his sloppiness?" (Hint: He also stabbed his abortionist mother in the neck with a steak knife.)

16. What New York abortionist admitted to exposing himself to more than 700 women and young girls, finally kidnapped and raped a six-year-old girl and spent seven years in prison for the crime, and was then welcomed back to his abortion practice with open arms by the State of New York?


Who is the father of the modern "pro-choice" movement? His hatred of expectant mothers and pregnancy was reflected in several of his novels, which celebrated the torture and murder of pregnant women. In one of his grisly and deranged novels, he describes with great relish the skewering of a pregnant woman with a red-hot iron rod driven through both her and her unborn baby. (Hint: Not surprisingly, his name is literally synonymous with cruelty, brutality and viciousness.)


1. John Baxter Hamilton.

2. Josef Mengele.

3. Henry Howard Holmes.

4. Brian Finkel.

5. The National Organization for Women (NOW).

6. Allan Zarkin.

7. Raymond Showery.

8. Vilis Kruze.

9. Richard Ragsdale.

10. Betty Friedan.

11. Judith Comeau-Samuel.

12. P. Scott Ricke.

13. Milan D. Chepko.

14. Kenneth Edelin.

15. Marc Eason.

16. Ronald Tauber.

Extra Credit

The Marquis de Sade.

Christian conservatives are playing an ancient game, a game that in modern times they always loose. Such are the benefits of blind faith to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. They are once again using religion to separate the world into “us” and “them.” Religion has poisoned the growth of civilization. Religion becomes really dangerous when their “us and them” worldview grows rigid, claiming moral (or theological) superiority over others destines them to rule the world, saving us from ourselves.

I can do just fine without help from a magic man living in the sky who grants wishes. Take a hike, pal.

abortion isn't illegal.

now, let us talk about your little terrorists blowing up clinics and sniping doctors.

I lived in the shores around you loons, I remember Christiandom sending the old guy with the beard and white dress lined with red trying to extort him by telling the store owner "if you sell condoms here, we won't shop here".... I also recall the shop owner telling him to stick it in his dark spot.

go figure a large percentage of the beer and condom sales went to your little brainwashed troops. seems to me you have a problem of zips in the wire.

We are being inundated with diarrhea-of-the-mouth-ratchet-jawing from "freedomfromtyranny" who must believe quantity overcomes lack of quality.

Frankly, Ms. freedomfromtyranny, you are putting my glass eye to sleep.


seems freedomfromtyranny is simply a copy and paste artist from the anti abortionist websites.

that isn't indoctrination, it is good old fashion brainwashing.

Facts are facts.

I too agree that "freedomfromtyranny" may be the most rabid supporter, and therefore the default leader, of the local anti-abortion pack who has managed to endlessly ramble incoherently without adding anything of substance to this conversation, save for an apparently endless stream of cut and paste blather from anti-abortion websites.

Oh, waiter, table for one, please.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Many of the divisive conversations humanity has endured and overcome were due to religious bigotry trying to control what society was permitted to believe. Many religious based issues of 50 to 100 to 500 years ago are today deemed settled as time after time the religious dogma was overcome by knowledge of the real world as these examples may serve to demonstrate:

· Science was not allowed because its discoveries conflicted with religion's myths. Settled - today science explains those mysteries not solvable by religious beliefs.

· Evolution was denied because it contradicted the unknown writer of a work referred to as Genesis. Settled - evolution is demonstrable, but a small minority of die-hard religious fanatics still fight the idea, their argument wholly based on religious dogma, not evidence or logic or reason.

· Dark skinned people were regarded as inferior humans destined to a role of servitude to light skinned people. Settled - all men are created equal.

· Mixed race marriages were regarded as abominations against religious teachings. Settled - mixed race couples are everyday ordinary.

· Homosexuality was championed to be made a felony punishable by imprisonment and/or death. Settled - homosexuality is now recognized as a normal occurrence in many mammals, but now the religious nut cases are against homosexual marriages. The nut cases will loose this argument also.

· Abortion was shunned as the inevitable outcome of female promiscuity enjoying sex for non-procreation purposes. Settled - birth control made family planning possible and desirable.

The ascent of man has always been impeded by the needs of religion to suppress knowledge exposing the myths of religion.

Knowledge is, and will continue to be, the demise of religious influence on the everyday man.

Religion is merely magic wrapped in a red bow that preys on and promotes ignorance of the world around us. Religion can not see the fine grained structure that is obscured by the blindness of faith.

What other artifact of humanity from the Bronze age do we hold in high regard today? Knowledge is the power that dooms religion to the dust bin of history.

"With or without religion you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.” Steven Weinberg, Nobel prize winner physicist.

facts need to be relivent.

don't make me pull up the pic of your Catholics with the nazis saluting them with the bellamy.

facts: Where did the jesus myth really come from?

They are retellings of stories, nothing more.
Read up on Horus for the answer...... If you are really interested in facts "freedomfromtyranny".

Go read and be honest with yourself and wake up to the fact that you are being played and having your pockets picked to fill their coffers in gold and riches with their foot to your neck, threatening your eternal soul. Stop living in fear.
Did god or science invent that computer you're poking around on?

Another illustration that sex abuse within the catholic church is alive and well:


If you spend more time protesting abortion than you do protesting sex abuse of children by priests, you are condoning sex abuse.

I find it very interesting that people talk about the time. Modern Time and how the laws of the past don't really apply anymore. I for one disagree with that. The famous line: The Catholics are out of touch with the modern times is a line that I could never understand. As a Baptist I tried to understand what they meant when ever any of my fellow Baptists would say that. And I was alway say to them the following: It is almost as if they are saying that what was wrong, 100 or 1000 or 5000 years ago is not wrong now. I don't remember God handing down to modern a Moses a Revised Version of the Ten Commandments. Nor do I remember God Handing down to modern day prophets a revised version of the Bible.

What was wrong 100, 1000 or 5000 years ago is still wrong today. If those of us who are Christian really read the Bible we will find that there are instances and readings in the Bible that speaks directly to our times.

And again I am trying to understand why there is so much hatred for the Catholic Church. But when I look at history I see that it has always been the case. Even our Lord Jesus Christ said very clearly that We would suffer because we followed him. I can see that Prophesy from Our Lord Jesus Christ has come true all throughout the 2000 years of History. I again am proud to consider myself a Christian and I proudly Stand with my Christian Brothers and Sisters who are Catholic.

here are the pics of your Catholic complicity with the Nazis. Now you have one as your pope.


Just saying, maybe you should avoid the nazi aspect in your rhetoric, it really is pretty easy to connect your Catholic church to their attrocities.

A few years ago, the "Christian" wouldn't even have thought the Catholics "true Christians".
isn't coveting and bearing false witness bad in this jesus guys teachings?

I love how suddenly the catholics and christians are the victim as they attempt to take over the gov't and change our constitution to "gods law"all the while imposing themselves into free citizens homes and medical procedures. you got some gall that's for sure.

Your bible is written in the hand on man, God didn't write one word. Being "all powerful" you'd think he would be able to write. go figure.

it's a good grift, but not much more than that. JMVHO

Well if you are going to do that let's take a look at the Wonderful founder of Planned Parenthood and her dealings with Certain Groups.


shakes head at the circular logic and irrelivence.

3% of PP goes to performing abortions. 3%

Religion has run out of justifications. Thanks to the telescope and the microscope, it no longer offers an explanation of anything important. Where once it used to be able, by its total command of a worldview, to prevent the emergence of rivals, it can now only impede and retard -- or try to turn back -- the measurable advances that we have made. Sometimes, true, it will artfully concede them. But this is to offer itself the choice between irrelevance and obstruction, impotence or outright reaction, and, given this choice, it is programmed to select the worse of the two. No finer example of this premise are the above comments from "truth will set you free" and "freedomfromtyranny".

Meanwhile, confronted with undreamed-of vistas inside our own evolving cortex, in the farthest reaches of the known universe, and in the proteins and acids which constitute our nature, religion offers either annihilation in the name of god, or else the false promise that if we take a knife to our foreskins, or pray in the right direction, or ingest pieces of wafer, we shall be "saved" into an afterlife of immortality filled with virgins, puffy white clouds, and some kind of bejeweled throne where sits a magician who makes it all possible.

It is as if someone, when offered a delicious and fragrant out-of-season fruit, matured in a painstakingly and lovingly designed hothouse, should throwaway the flesh and the pulp and gnaw moodily on the pit. And this is what religion has devolved into, chewing on the bones of promised immortality in exchange for a slavish devotion empty of real rewards.

To "wondering":

Your photos are very clever propaganda, but your fictional thesis utterly contradicts the actual records contained in the TRANSCRIPTS of the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials.

See and get the facts from the opening presentation at Nuremburg by Mr. Justice Robert H. Jackson, Chief of Counsel for the Prosecution, United States of America. Proceedings of the Nuremburg War Crimes Trial, Volume II, 21 November 1945, pages 115 to 117:

"A most intense drive was directed against the Roman Catholic Church (by the Nazis)…a long and persistent persecution of the Catholic Church, its priesthood, and its members, was carried out. Church schools and educational institutions were suppressed or subjected to requirements of Nazi teaching inconsistent with the Christian faith. …Religious instruction was impeded and the exercise of religion made difficult. Priests and bishops were laid upon, riots were stimulated to harass them, and many were sent to concentration camps. After occupation of foreign soil, these persecutions went on with greater vigor than ever.”

Further evidence of "wondering's" ignorance is the statement of George S. Messersmith, Consul General of the United States of America in Berlin from 1930 to late spring of 1934, in an affidavit marked as Document 1760-PS. Proceedings of the Nuremburg War Crimes Trial, Volume II, 28 November 1945, page 354:

"During the wave of terroristic acts in May and June 1934, I had already assumed my duties as American Minister in Vienna. The bomb outrages during this period were directed primarily at railways, tourist centers, and the Catholic Church, which latter, in the eyes of the Nazis, was one of the strongest organizations opposing them."

FURTHERMORE, Dr. Albert Einstein (Do you know who he is????) stated:

"Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi revolution came in Germany I looked to the universities to defend it, but the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, but they, like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks...
...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth."

These are the irrefutable facts.

Sadly Wondering will still cling the hope that the Catholic Church was indeed allies for the Nazies. Anytime they have an opportunity to bash or tear down the Catholic Church they will happily do that. The Catholic Church has always been an easy target. It is sad really. Because I have come to realize that the Catholic Church, not the Baptist Church or anyother Church, has the truth. I am going to begin a journey towards what I now believe is the One True Church. So you will now have one more target to go after. This person is a sad person. Who needs our sympathy and our prayers. I will pray for this sad person. And most importantly as Christians we must forgive this sad person.

I am afraid that nothing can be said to change the mind of this sad sad person.

I'll leave with this. When they came for the Jews I did nothing because I was not a Jew. When they came for the Catholics I did nothing because I was not Catholic. When they came for the Protestants I did nothing because I was not a prostestant. Then they came for me and I realized that there was no one left to turn too.

In reference to the following: "a contraceptive mandate" that requires employers to provide insurance coverage that includes contraception, sterilization and drugs that cause abortions. What right does any employer have to tell an insurance company they do not have to pay for birth control pills or whatever. The employee pays a portion of their insurance and if they want to get birth control pills, get sterilized then that is the person’s right. If we let our employers dictate what the insurance will or will not cover then the insurance companies win and eventually the insurance companies will not cover any thing. What next they won’t have to cover a person getting cancer, or any other serious illness. Why does the Christians stand up and try to tell the rest of the world what they can do with their own body’s, it is up to the individual person. Why should I have to keep paying for all the children born that are on welfare just so the Christians can say they stopped all of the people having abortions, if they want all these children to be born to the low or middle class as they are the ones that this hurts the most, let them pay for their lifetime care, why should I have to. The rich and the so called Christian ones that can pay and hide their little in discrepancies go get their abortions and no one finds out. Then they want to act all high and mighty. I pay for my insurance and if I wanted birth control I think my insurance should cover the cost. Matter of fact the insurance company’s should have to pay all medical expenses from the day you start paying for your insurance, there should not be any pre-existing conditions. Most of the time you have a choice between insurance companies, most people chose the plan that covers the most for what they as an individual can afford to pay, and for all this protesting against what should or should not be covered is for the birds. The law should make the insurance companies cover all medical expenses and prescriptions not matter what they are for.

I direct the entirety of what follows to refute a previous posting by "freedomfromtyranny".

On religious Web sites and in religious propaganda, you may come across a statement purportedly made by Albert Einstein in 1940:

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came to Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks.... Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

Originally printed in Time magazine (without any verifiable attribution), this supposed statement was once cited in a national broadcast by the famous American Catholic spokesman and cleric Fulton Sheen, and remains in circulation. As the analyst William Waterhouse has pointed out, it does not sound like Einstein at all. Its rhetoric is too florid, for one thing. It makes no mention of the persecution of the Jews. And it makes the cool and careful Einstein look silly, in that he claims to have once "despised" something in which he also "never had any special interest." There is another difficulty, in that the statement never appears in any anthology of Einstein's written or spoken remarks. Eventually, Waterhouse was able to find an unpublished letter in the Einstein Archives in Jerusalem, in which the old man in 1947 complained of having once made a remark praising some German "churchmen" (not "churches") which had since been exaggerated beyond all recognition.

Anyone wanting to know what Einstein did say in the early days of Hitler's barbarism can easily look him up. For example:

"I hope that healthy conditions will soon supervene in Germany and that in future her great men like Kant and Goethe will not merely be commemorated from time to time but that the principles which they taught will also prevail in public life and in the general consciousness."

It is quite clear from this that he put his "faith," as always, in the Enlightenment tradition.

Those who seek to misrepresent the man who gave us an alternative theory of the cosmos (as well as those who remained silent or worse while his fellow Jews were being deported and destroyed) betray the prickings of their bad consciences.

Only one member of the giant and genius category ever truly spoke his mind without any apparent fear or excess of caution. I therefore cite Albert Einstein, so much misrepresented, once again. He is addressing a correspondent who is troubled by yet another of those many misrepresentations:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Years later he answered another query by stating:
"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

These words stem from a mind, or a man, who was rightly famed for his care and measure and scruple, and whose sheer genius had laid bare a theory that might, in the wrong hands, have obliterated not only this world but also its whole past and the very possibility of its future. He devoted the greater part of his life to a grand refusal of the role of a punitive prophet, preferring to spread the message of enlightenment and humanism. Decidedly Jewish, and exiled and defamed and persecuted as a consequence, he preserved what he could of ethical Judaism and rejected the barbaric mythology of the Pentateuch. We have more reason to be grateful to him than to all the rabbis who have ever wailed, or who ever will.

On the misrepresentation of Einstein, see William Waterhouse, "Misquoting Einstein," in Skeptic vol. 12, no. 3, pp. 60-61.

The Albert Einstein quotation beginning "It was, of course, a lie" can be found in Jennifer Michael Hecht, Doubt: A History, p. 447. See also Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffinan, eds., Albert Einstein, the Human Side: New Glimpses from His Archives, (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1979), p. 43.

The quotation beginning "I do not believe in the immortality of the individual" can be found in Hecht, Doubt: A History, p. 447. See also Dukas and Hoffman, Albert Einstein, the Human Side, p. 39.

How curious that the religious mob-of-one, "freedomfromtyranny", so fond of likening her adversaries to Hitler knows so little about history that she doesn’t recognize her own small-scale mimicry of Kristallnacht against abortionists.

Twenty years ago, the dawn of the Internet Age gave us Godwin's Law: If an online argument goes on long enough, somebody will eventually invoke Hitler or quote scripture from a religious text. When that happens, it's basically the end of the conversation, because all rational discussion ceases when one side compares or calls the other Nazis or godless.

Awesome. Nuff said. :beer:

Truth wrote: "Anytime they have an opportunity to bash or tear down the Catholic Church they will happily do that."

Most observers agree that the catholic church is its own worst enemy. All one has to do is keep up with the news to see that the church does a great job shooting itself in the foot, on a regular basis.

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Jesus Christ

yet no actual proof jesus said anything and god was so omnipotent he/she couldn't write their own book. Makes perfect sense.

Zeus, father of gods and men..... Where'd that guy go? Laughs and calls it a night.
pass the plate

What is wrong "wondering"? Why is your soul so restless? Why so angry?

Name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been made or performed by a nonbeliever.

"simonsays" -- "truth will set you free" -- "freedomfromtyranny":

These thousand year old verses speak to egotistical minds who believe their privileged standing with their god is uniquely denied to all others:

And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well - what matters it? Believe that, too!

Look not above, there is no answer there;
Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;
Near is as near to God as any Far,
And Here is just the same deceit as There.

"The Moving Finger writes: and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."

(Richard Le Gallienne Translation)

Oh I'm not angry, I just see you folk for what you are..... fools. You just aren't smart enough for reality and frankly I think anyone having conversations with the invisible man has a mental disorder.


There comes a point when you realize some have lost their footing in reality. When false/distorted information, scare tactics, propaganda is being used, you realize the mental instability/ inability to accept and/or understand reality of whom you are dealing with, discussion becomes pointless.

There is a lot of bigoted haters of conscience freedom people posting. Most do not have the facts. We will ALL suffer should our conscience rights be flushed. This abortion, infanticide protecting president and his policies will be the death of more than just the babies and old people should he be allowed to continue. We will stand for life. And we will oppose paying for your choices. If what goes in your bedroom is your private matter, others will not be forced to pay for it. Try NFP, it is chemical free, it also helps with hormonal problems. Simple.

Speaking of paying..... time for your little cult to lose its tax exempt status.

Is it possible that any god kills family members in order to reunite them with loved ones later on?

Do you think religion's cultural contributions have outweighed the tribal conflicts it has provoked?

Do you agree the central paradox at the core of religion is that the 4 great monotheisms, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim all teach people to think abjectly of themselves as miserable and guilty sinners prostrate before an angry and jealous god" while also teaching people "to be extremely self-centered and conceited" by assuring them that "god cares for them individually" and that "the cosmos was created with them specifically in mind"?

Why did heaven leave the human race to suffer and die alone for the first one hundred thousand years of its existence, and only decide to intervene in the last few thousand years, and then only in illiterate and barbaric regions of the Middle East and not the whole world?

If it were to be shown conclusively that Moses and Jesus and Mohammed were mythical figures, and their "books" man-made and not god-made, would all our moral dilemmas not be exactly what they are now? Or would you consider this news a personal tragedy?

If you want me to stay out of your bedroom, your womb, your vagina then quit asking me to pay for what you do there and how you use them and the consequences that come from it.

So does that mean that your madrasses will no longer be accepting federal monies? IE mine? (Thanks George Bush). we all pay for something we either don't like or need, but we do live in one coultry and I have no issue paying to help the greater good. you're .00002 of a cent isn't going to break you.

here are some consequences for you....1 million (est) mouths to feed per year. not enough hungry people in the country for you?
we have warehouses full of children no one will adopt now. Empty those and Maybe, Maybe you'll get me to your side. Until then you simply want to create a worse problem by imposing yourself into another womens body and forcing all these unwanted kids on us all..

If you don't approve of abortion, don't get one. If you need one it should be availible and strictly between the doctor and his patient.



Employees pay for their own insurance. NOT YOU. So it is not your right to decide what is "morally correct" for that insurance to cover. College students pay for their insurance, so again, its not up to you to decide what is "morally correct" for it to cover. So yes, you are sticking your nose squarely where it does not belong. How about sticking your money where your mouth is, how many unwanted children have you adopted to show how much you value life? How many un-wed, young Moms have you helped WITHOUT demoralizing or preaching to? How many times have you called social services and asked what you can do to help? You value nothing but attempting to hold a moral superiority over others due to your own unhappiness.

Hey Bishop, everybody thinks you are such a phony-baloney so please show them just how smart you really are and answer this one little question:

Why does heaven hate ham?

There is going to be a time that you are going to highly regret attacking people of faith.

that sounds like one of those Christian jihadist threats.

When all else fails revert to old faithful, the fear factor. Yes "turn before you burn". In reality the only thing to fear is that present Christian people turn violent like other present religeons or past Christians.

You know that is not such a bad idea. Then the Catholic would be free to really speak their minds. WOW they could even run their clergy as candidates! Careful for what you wish for. If the Catholic Church were to, Let's say voluntarily give up their tax exempt status then they would beable to get involved in the Political system. Could you imagine that! Wow! A Catholic Priest or Cardinal or Bishop running for congress, Senate or Oh My Dare I say it? President!! Oh what a great joy that would be. Now do you want to retract your statement about The Catholic Church Lossing their tax excempt status?

I sure will not retract.... Nothing is stopping them from doing so now. Your church has become nothing but a PAC anyway.

Your churches free ride is OVER. After the catholic abuse cover ups, they should have their doors closed, be sold off and all procedes from that sale should go to the victims and your clergy shoud go to gen pop.

In the very recent past, we have seen the Church of Rome (yep, Catholics -- the religion everybody loves to hate) befouled by its complicity with the unpardonable sin of child rape, or, as it might be phrased in Latin form, "no child's behind left."

What would stop homosexual Catholic priests running for elected office? The church didn't stop the priests from raping children. I can almost hear Santorum now, effusing priestly praise using "bestiality" and "homosexual" in the same sentence.

Forgiveness?? Easy-peasy -- say 3 Hail Mary's and put a little something extra in the collection plate.


here is a question for the Catholic apologists.

What do you think should happen to those who have raped children in your churches by your priests and those that hid them and moved them to other parishes to continue their child rape on new victims?

Ok first of all remember I am not a Catholic. I am a Baptist. Thinking about becomming one though. If you want the Catholic Church to loose it's tax exempt status then you must be prepared to deal with Priests, Bishops and Cardinals running for public office. And remember how many Catholics out there vote. But you go ahead and push for that. Just remember what you want isn't always what you get. And what did the Catholic Church do to you personally that causes such hatred to come from you? Or what Sin have you committed or want to commit that causes you to hate the Catholic Church so much?

I was raised a Catholic and I have seen their disgusting actions. can say the same about the southern baptists as well. trying to scare you into fearing jesus or he'll set you afire in hell, etc etc.....

Now, you failed to answer the question above. we all know the church was complicit in hiding these child rapists, .....

I am just posting to say that this comment thread isn't long enough yet.

Ohh now I understand. It's the whole guilt thing. "How dare the Church, that was founded By Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago, tell me what to do." Ok well Now that we understand what the problem is we can now see how biassed your comments are.

News Flash for you. The Humans who are the priests, ministers, and bishops and cardinals and the Pope are sinners. Even Jesus Christ surrounded himself with sinners. Why? because like it or not Humans Fail!! That still doesn't take away from the Church's responsibility to do the work of God. Regardless what a few corrupt sinners did the Church still has an obligation to lead people to Heaven. SHould the people pay for what they did? Of Course they should. Now get a life go to confession and stop bashing your Church. Becuse as I heard time and time again from friends "Once a Catholic Always a Catholic. " Oh and the hell stuff you throw out there. It's real. And you are on the path too it if you don't turn around and go back to the Church. Stop using your anger with the Church as an excuse to stay away from it. Grow up!

Pardon me... would you have any Grey Poupon?

Again, study Horus.... jesus is a myth retold to the newest flock of mush brains.

too blind to notice the "flock" is being fleeced.

PS: still no answer to the question.

why is the catholic apologist "Christians" and "Catholics" so quick to dismiss and attemptt to gleen over thier child raping churches..... Do you also approve of child rape truth will set you free ?

Grow up?

So the one talking to the invisible man is telling me to grow up.... Scoffs at the brainwashed. zombie jesus follower.

Now we know the truth.....a lot of catholics makes the most comments on here than any one else.

Correct you are Geoff!! Nothing like a good ole' religious argument to bring out the extremes.

Religion's weaknesses always point to the greater the absurdity, (walking on water, making the sun stand still, virgin birth, immaculate conception, the stars falling to the ground, people living to the ripe old age of 900+ years) the stronger the belief in it.

Faith is at its greatest when its teachings are least amenable to reason, especially when overshadowed by new scientific discoveries that explain away the magic of religion. Benjamin Franklin's invention of the lightening rod dealt a near fatal blow to the belief lightening was the wrath of god punishing the wicked. Of course when a non-wicked person was struck dead, the refrain was the newly dead was being punished for misdeeds committed behind closed doors away from public scrutiny, but the all knowing god wasn't fooled, he could see what was going on. Imagine the slack jaws resulting when Franklin goes on to elaborate the common household equipment -- brass wire, a knitting needle, a few small staples -- that is required to accomplish this "miracle" protecting everybody from lightening. All of a sudden, gods power was reduced to being under the control of mankind.

So why does the magic of religion fall apart when we discuss the priests who raped children. Were these priests somehow immune to catching a lightening bolt?

For the topic of this newspaper article, it was a given the religious faithful would self-anoint themselves as victims of a government gone wild, a persecution unjustly deserved. But these are the trappings of devout religious people, the world has done them wrong but faith will make it whole again. And this is the falsehood of every religion -- that their god is on their side.

During the Civil War between the States, the motto of the Confederacy was Deo Vindice, or "God on Our Side." Atlanta was burned to ashes by people who thought that the same god took the other view.

Two peoples, same god, different results. No wonder religion makes people crazy.


To put it succintly, if the USA continues like this,(without God) the country is going straight to Hell.

the Taliban agrees. This is America, no need for the ministry of vice and virtue here. God is simply a myth to keep the foolish living in fear.

Take your theocracy and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Well I guess we will be right there in Hell with the countries that are still deep believers in God. Syria, Afghanastan, Egypt and on and on.

The demand of religion to give up the illusions about its condition is the demand to give up a condition that needs illusions.

One of America's most seminal books is William James's The Varieties of Religious Experience, in which he argues that the subjective experience of the divine can be understood only by the believer. By reading the above messages posted by what I would describe as religious fanatics, I have just been finding out how true this is.

You hear all the time that America is an intensely religious nation, but what you don't hear is that there are almost as many religions as there are believers. Moreover, many ostensible believers are quite unsure of what they actually believe. And, to put it mildly, the different faiths don't think that highly of one another. The emerging picture is not at all monolithic.

I leave it to the evangelical fundamentalists and all the other hateful faithful to burn each other's churches and mosques and synagogues, which they can always be relied upon to do. Religion will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other.

Religion will destroy itself without my assistance. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence? I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition - which is that they in turn leave me alone. But religion is ultimately incapable of doing this. As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard won human attainments of civilization. Religion poisons everything.

Speaking of death....

Imagine yourself dead. What picture comes to mind? Your funeral with a casket surrounded by family and friends? Complete darkness and void? In either case, you are still conscious and observing the scene. In reality, you can no more envision what it is like to be dead than you can visualize yourself before you were born. Death is cognitively nonexistent, and yet we know it is real because every one of the 100 billion people who lived before us is gone.

The attempt to resolve the "imagine you're dead" paradox leads to 4 immortality narratives:

Staying alive: Like all living systems, we strive to avoid death. The human dream of living forever - physically, in this world - is the most basic of immortality narratives. Science is nowhere near reengineering the body to stay alive beyond 120 years. Sooner or later, you'll be dead.

Resurrection: The belief that, although we must physically die, nonetheless we can physically rise again with the bodies we knew in life. Both religious and scientific forms of resurrecting your body succumb to the Transformation Problem (how could you be reassembled just as you were and yet this time be invulnerable to disease and death?) and the Duplication Problem (how would duplicates be different from twins?). The cloning problem will raise yet another paradox (are both clones "me"?) When you are dead, you stay dead forever.

Soul: The dream of surviving as some kind of spiritual entity. The soul hypothesis has been slain by neuroscience showing that the mind (consciousness, memory and personality patterns representing "you") cannot exist without the brain. When the brain dies of injury, stroke, dementia or Alzheimer's, the mind dies with it. No brain, no mind; no body, no soul. Dead is dead.

Legacy: More indirect ways of extending ourselves into the future such as glory, reputation, historical impact or children. Do you want to achieve immortality through your work or do you want to achieve it by not dying? Staying alive forever is tough work, dying is relatively easy, anybody can do it, and everybody does it. When your gone, you stay gone.

All four fail to deliver everlasting life. Death is permanent

Could there be a fifth immortality narrative, that of immortality achieved through sexual reproduction? With all its rules governing sex, perhaps organized religion thinks physical immortality via sexual reproduction competes with spiritual immortality, hence all the religious concerns with reproductive health?

Being Lent and heading into Holy week there are many posts here that shock the conscience. Clearly it is as it is written, "one chooses hell."

A lethal combo of religion and politics has over a 100 posts. Looks as if the non-believers are winning this debate impressively. Intellect over superstition imagine that. Come on believers, give it another shot. If you got God on your side you cant lose, right.



Hmmmm how can i spell this out so people will under stand?

wondering, I will be praying for you. If anyone thinks posting here brings on some kind of a victory you are sadly delusional.

Perhaps emboldened by a nice bottle of Chardonay with dinner tonight, I was inspired by several intelligently worded messages posted on this forum. Until reading these posts, I too believed I was the only atheist in Front Royal. Thanks to the many posts here, I now know I am not alone, and I am encouraged to add my 2 cents to this discussion.

As a father and grandfather, my particular beef with organized religion is the concept of virgin birth.

Virgin birth? Twenty, thirty centuries and more into the past, legends relate numerous gods were born of virgin mothers. So many, it seems, that if one is to believe virgin birth from immaculately conceived mothers were actually possible, sex must have been a mystery to all of Bronze age humanity. No wonder sex is so highly regulated by organized religions today.

It is in Bethlehem, not far from Jerusalem, that many protestants believe that with the cooperation of an immaculately conceived virgin, a god was delivered of a son without the benefit of sexual union between mother Mary and father Joseph. The birth of Jesus Christ was in this manner announced to the world several centuries after the fact. Then as now, virgin births were also not new in the time of Joseph and Mary.

Yes, and the Greek demigod Perseus was born when the god Jupiter visited the virgin Danae as a shower of gold and got her with child.

The god Buddha was born through an opening in his mother's flank.

Catlicus the serpent-skirted, caught a little ball of feathers from the sky and hid it in her bosom, and the Aztec god Huitzilopochtli was thus conceived.

The virgin Nana took a pomegranate from the tree watered by the blood of the slain Agdestris, and laid it in her bosom, and gave birth to the god Attis.

The virgin daughter of a Mongol king awoke one night and found herself bathed in a great light, which caused her to give birth to Genghis Khan.

Krishna was born of the virgin Devaka.

Horus was born of the virgin Isis.

Mercury was born of the virgin Maia.

Romulus was born of the virgin Rhea Sylvia.

And there are more examples, almost too numerous to mention here. Somebody said the more outrageous the belief, the more fanatical the adherents. Virgin birth seems to fill the bill more than most other outrageous conjectures.

For some reason, many religions force themselves to think of the birth canal as a one-way street. Even the Koran treats the Virgin Mary with reverence. However, this made no difference during the Crusades, when a Catholic papal army set out to recapture Bethlehem and Jerusalem from the Muslims, incidentally destroying many Jewish communities and sacking heretical Christian Byzantium along the way, and inflicted a massacre in the narrow streets of Jerusalem, where, according to the hysterical and gleeful chroniclers, the spilled blood reached up to the bridles of the horses.

Does this mean Christianity was born in a bath of blood? Apparently. What does this say about a peaceful and benevolent supreme being becoming the savior of humanity as the result of a bloody massacre? It seems to me an all powerful god, if such a thing existed, could bypass bloody massacres and go straight to worldwide peaceful co-existence of all humanity, saving numerous worthy, and unworthy, lives in the process.

This not being the case, religion must be a man-made concoction.

Therefore, when one of the frequent names appearing here posts terse one-liner comments promising heavenly revenge towards those he disapproves, as is his usual fare, I realize many of the devoutly religious are not well versed in their beliefs, who must attend church for a mixture of reasons, from social to charitable to ethnic, taking their beliefs ala carte or cafeteria-style, choosing the bits they like and discarding the rest.

When the fear thing and all else fails, you pray for the person who has made more sense. Typical. Prayer request...that howboutthehotel wins the big lottery tonight. If that happens I will be a lot more inclined to accept Jesus as my Lord. Reason...well I did not buy a single ticket, and that would be about as logical as most of the things I found with religeon.

Looks around. >

I don't recall claiming anything of the sort Simon? I'm a victor in dismissing dogma for reality. You betcha, but never claimed victory here.
No need for your empty words to the man in the clouds. Just send cash ;-)

Excellent post.

Envy your talent to put very eloquently into words what you think, felt and know. If I thought it could make me better skilled I would switch from Cabernet to Chardonay.

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